Why are artists like Kanye West credited as "Musical Geniuses"

[98bullz]

Sampling is directly taking someone else's work they created. It's taking a song someone else made, they played. Musical notation is using notes, a music language, to write out a song to be played. The techniques are nothing alike. They are both technically composing, but one is composing by editing, the other is composing by writing something from your own mind, unless of course the musician is stealing or copying, which often happens.

Don't believe me? For example:

Bow wow feat Omarion - Let Me Hold You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RjfSRAnwA

Original Sample:

Luther Vandross - If only for one night - YouTube


I used to think this song was a master piece.. Until I did a little digging and found out that No.I.D. and Jermaine Dupri, pretty much did no work and just sped up the track and added drums..

Just about anyone can sample, it's incredibly easy, like rapping, singing, and beat making, there are obviously degrees of skill and talent, but generally speaking, ANYONE can do it. What's even worse is when these so called "producers" loop a beat, speed it up to make it REALLY quick and then pass it off as a "masterpiece" lol. If that's you, then Plz go. I'm sorry, but if you take an old song and just loop it, then I have some bad news for you..You're not talented nor are you a "musical genius" (sorry kanye), if anything, you are a remixer and nothing else.

Anyone can find a song they like loop their favorite part then add drums and a synth,this isn't hard. Very few people however can compose great music. Hell, I know a lot of people who can't read a lick of sheet music, but know how to sample, in fact I have plenty of samples in my musical archive, sometimes it takes me less than a minute to loop. Early sampling was just that, simple loops.

Now if you FLIP a sample... Now, I might have a LITTLE more respect for you. But If you're whole catalog of music consist of other peoples music that you're passing off as your own, then you're really not that talented.

Producers that make tracks by sampling other artists music should be labeled Co-Producers not Full Producer.

Discuss.

mode edit out of sequence but context intact - forum tools are blunt instruments at best

Hiphop is a mixed bag for me.Most of the tracks i hear in hiphop are extremely minimalistic, but I can still enjoy them.
That's the thing though, at one point I did worship his audiostyle.You don't understand that because you might have a musical backround.
I think I understand you.I believe you are trying to inform us that kanye is trying to call those beats 100% his depsite the songs being 1-4 second chops of other people's songs.

This^

I don't mean "from scratch" I mean he does not just loop and add drums

Still waiting for these so called examples, that will prove my premise wrong..

Answer the question, what percentage of his songs are made by other people? Then answer, What can he actually do musically by himself? The undefined question is, does his "greatness" rest with his own musical abilities, or does it rest with OTHER peoples established musical abilities in conjunction with his cult like personality and fan base? Again.. What percentage of his music is made by others? Stop avoiding the question.

My thoughts exactly. No one can refute my points. Case Closed.

 

[KonKossKang]

Sampling's pretty complicated man.Things you can do with synthesis and drums, vsts like garritan or kontakt etc you have not a worry in the world for time signature or beatmatching.You literally have complete control of timing of everything else but samples.It seems as if some samples you can't do what you want to, you'd have to work around them, which I dislike the process of.

Which does bring up an understandable point.What liberties to take when sampling other people.

 

[98bullz]

Sampling's pretty complicated man.Things you can do with synthesis and drums, vsts like garritan or kontakt etc you have not a worry in the world for time signature or beatmatching.You literally have complete control of timing of everything else but samples.It seems as if some samples you can't do what you want to, you'd have to work around them, which I dislike the process of.

Which does bring up an understandable point.What liberties to take when sampling other people.

Not really sure how this argument really counteracts the statement that I'm arguing. I never said that sampling can't be complicated, all i want to know is why artist and producers like Kanye get called musical geniuses, for basically speeding up other peoples music? In other words I'm saying that if 90-100% of your production are samples then I'm REALLY doubting your musical abilities. I rarely hear a song that Kanye has made from scratch, and the one's that I HAVE heard from "scratch" are usually co-produced E.G. Jay-Z, Kid Cudi, etc. Sooo.. I don't see why everyone's calling him a "Musical Genius".

Just telling it how it is. Sampling is for people who don't know how to play instruments (well enough) to make their own music, so they have to edit, copy and paste, pitch correct and manipulate other peoples music in order to produce records. Which is alright I guess.. Just don't take full credit for it, and don't take yourself so seriously as if you did something that no one else could do.

 

[vNm]

you clearly have not listened to Kanyes entire "catalog"

 

[98bullz]

you clearly have not listened to Kanyes entire "catalog"

Examples?

I'll wait..

 

[vNm]

I don't mean "from scratch" I mean he does not just loop and add drums

 

[MR44khz]

Sampling is directly taking someone else's work they created. It's taking a song someone else made, they played. Musical notation is using notes, a music language, to write out a song to be played. The techniques are nothing alike. They are both technically composing, but one is composing by editing, the other is composing by writing something from your own mind, unless of course the musician is stealing or copying, which often happens.

Don't believe me? For example:

Bow wow feat Omarion - Let Me Hold You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RjfSRAnwA

Original Sample:

Luther Vandross - If only for one night - YouTube


I used to think this song was a master piece.. Until I did a little digging and found out that No.I.D. and Jermaine Dupri, pretty much did no work and just sped up the track and added drums..

Just about anyone can sample, it's incredibly easy, like rapping, singing, and beat making, there are obviously degrees of skill and talent, but generally speaking, ANYONE can do it. What's even worse is when these so called "producers" loop a beat, speed it up to make it REALLY quick and then pass it off as a "masterpiece" lol. If that's you, then Plz go. I'm sorry, but if you take an old song and just loop it, then I have some bad news for you..You're not talented nor are you a "musical genius" (sorry kanye), if anything, you are a remixer and nothing else.

Anyone can find a song they like loop their favorite part then add drums and a synth,this isn't hard. Very few people however can compose great music. Hell, I know a lot of people who can't read a lick of sheet music, but know how to sample, in fact I have plenty of samples in my musical archive, sometimes it takes me less than a minute to loop. Early sampling was just that, simple loops.

Now if you FLIP a sample... Now, I might have a LITTLE more respect for you. But If you're whole catalog of music consist of other peoples music that you're passing off as your own, then you're really not that talented.

Producers that make tracks by sampling other artists music should be labeled Co-Producers not Full Producer.

Discuss.

Agreed,but this has been talked about many times and gets heated I'm out!

 

[98bullz]

I don't mean "from scratch" I mean he does not just loop and add drums

Pretty much.

Sure, he might chop, but he RARELY flips a sample.

He USUALLY just loops.. Off the top of my head:

"New Workout Plan", "Through The Wire", "Power", "Heard em' say".. Shall I go on?

Agreed,but this has been talked about many times and gets heated I'm out!

I didn't know.

Anyway, what's your stance on the matter? Please go into more depth. What points do you specifically agree with?

 

[vNm]

Like I said you clearly have not taken in his music

 

[98bullz]

Like I said you clearly have not taken in his music

And like I said, you CLEARLY haven't posted any examples. Plz go.

 

[KonKossKang]

Kanye, well when I was smaller I liked all his stuff[Rode like no tomorrow the jock of west].In a sense he could be called a musical genius technically speaking because he did things that weren't being done at the time.I was amazed by his beats till I learned all of this stuff years later and look at him with a different eye.I still like his beats but it is easy to see where you're going with this.Yes, it seems like less work to people who do this type of thing.

Which, as I said earlier brings up a complicated set of new questions.What liberties to take, when sampling.Sampling is easy, and hard.Some songs let you do whatever you want to the timing.Some are brickwalls that require much more effort to time correctly and sometimes it's just better to go the synth route or vst route and learn the basics of sheet music.If I wanted to, I honestly could do what kanye does because he samples, and his chops are for the most part untouched despite pitch alterations.

My opinion is that a musical genius is a person who is very smart when it comes to audio.I do not think this of samplers, myself included or anybody else because even though sampling is tricky, it doesn't really fit the bill of "musical knowledge".It's a math thing.

Examples of his stuff I still ride behind hm...I wonder, big brother, homecoming, daft punk collaberation, basically all his stuff before dark fantasy.
I do not include anything after 808s except a few songs like so appalled, blood on the leaves[versions not rapped by him, chinese girl and another black man killed that track imo]

 

[98bullz]

Kanye, well when I was smaller I liked all his stuff[Rode like no tomorrow the jock of west].In a sense he could be called a musical genius technically speaking because he did things that weren't being done at the time.I was amazed by his beats till I learned all of this stuff years later and look at him with a different eye.I still like his beats but it is easy to see where you're going with this.Yes, it seems like less work to people who do this type of thing.

Which, as I said earlier brings up a complicated set of new questions.What liberties to take, when sampling.Sampling is easy, and hard.Some songs let you do whatever you want to the timing.Some are brickwalls that require much more effort to time correctly and sometimes it's just better to go the synth route or vst route and learn the basics of sheet music.If I wanted to, I honestly could do what kanye does because he samples, and his chops are for the most part untouched despite pitch alterations.

My opinion is that a musical genius is a person who is very smart when it comes to audio.I do not think this of samplers, myself included or anybody else because even though sampling is tricky, it doesn't really fit the bill of "musical knowledge".It's a math thing.

I disagree that "In a sense he could be called a musical genius" he lacks musical ability, just because he "did something different' doesn't make him a genius, MANY producers were sampling like that at the time, but did not get famous. He took that fame and that platform and because it was NEW to the mainstream got hype. I think we can both agree that sampling is only as hard as you make it... As far as Kanye, being a "genius" I'd beg to differ. Sampling is a technique, and I'm not arguing against the technique. I argue against sampling other music and claiming it as yours, taking credit where it is not due. A producer who samples, is using work that isn't theirs that they do not understand technically (musical theory), THAT is not the same thing as being a "musical genius". Kanye is NOT creating new music, he is remixing. By your definition of Kanye being a "genius" I can create a whole new song just by taking a snippet out of another song. That's not right.

Examples of his stuff I still ride behind hm...I wonder, big brother, homecoming, daft punk collaberation, basically all his stuff before dark fantasy.
I do not include anything after 808s except a few songs like so appalled, blood on the leaves[versions not rapped by him, chinese girl and another black man killed that track imo]

It's okay to like this stuff. You like what you like, I'm not dogging that. I AM dogging the people who worship him based off of his musical "talent".

Oh, and btw, tracks like "I wonder" are exactly what I'm talking about. Just a loop. Shitty drums, and a synth. Not much genius there.

 

[KonKossKang]

Hiphop is a mixed bag for me.Most of the tracks i hear in hiphop are extremely minimalistic, but I can still enjoy them.
That's the thing though, at one point I did worship his audiostyle.You don't understand that because you might have a musical backround.
I think I understand you.I believe you are trying to inform us that kanye is trying to call those beats 100% his depsite the songs being 1-4 second chops of other people's songs.

Which I do not refute.Mixes will always be mixes.Dnb,hiphop, that trill wave.As long as he pays for what he makes money off, not a big deal in my opinion.
You can actually do that, create a new song from pieces of older material.Capcom and square enix did that to their own orchestra so many times it's hilarious.
I'll still ride the jock of west slightly by saying he has a lot more patience than I do when it comes to sampling those chops so smooth.

 

[Rekordhead]

Not really sure how this argument really counteracts the statement that I'm arguing. I never said that sampling can't be complicated, all i want to know is why artist and producers like Kanye get called musical geniuses, for basically speeding up other peoples music? In other words I'm saying that if 90-100% of your production are samples then I'm REALLY doubting your musical abilities. I rarely hear a song that Kanye has made from scratch, and the one's that I HAVE heard from "scratch" are usually co-produced E.G. Jay-Z, Kid Cudi, etc. Sooo.. I don't see why everyone's calling him a "Musical Genius".

Just telling it how it is. Sampling is for people who don't know how to play instruments (well enough) to make their own music, so they have to edit, copy and paste, pitch correct and manipulate other peoples music in order to produce records. Which is alright I guess.. Just don't take full credit for it, and don't take yourself so seriously as if you did something that no one else could do.

have you heard kanye post "college dropout"

 

[98bullz]

have you heard kanye post "college dropout"

Yes..

Are there any examples you'd like to share?

 

[Rekordhead]

Yes..

Are there any examples you'd like to share?

All of Yeezus

 

[Rekordhead]

Still waiting for these so called examples, that will prove my premise wrong..

Answer the question, what percentage of his songs are made by other people? Then answer, What can he actually do musically by himself? The undefined question is, does his "greatness" rest with his own musical abilities, or does it rest with OTHER peoples established musical abilities in conjunction with his cult like personality and fan base? Again.. What percentage of his music is made by others? Stop avoiding the question.

Being a producer isn't about doing it all yourself, its having the vision for the song to bring it to completion. Rick Rubin, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones are regarded as musical geniuses, producer elites, do you think they played every instrument on the songs they produced?

 

[98bullz]

All of Yeezus

Lol.. Do you even read threads? Or do you just skim through threads?

All of The Lights
Produced by: Kanye West, AND Jeff Bhasker


Flashing Lights:
Produced by: Kanye West, AND Eric Hudson

Not to mention that not only are those two examples BASIC beats that a third grader could make, but "Yeezus" was NOT a good album, and is DEFIANTLY NOT Kanye's best work
sonically.

I said " rarely hear a song that Kanye has made from scratch, and the one's that I HAVE heard from "scratch" are usually co-produced E.G. Jay-Z, Kid Cudi, etc. Sooo.. I don't see why everyone's calling him a "Musical Genius".

and to prove me wrong you post TWO BASIC songs that were Co-Produced. Nice..

Still, nobody wants to answer my questions. "what percentage of his songs are made by other people? Then answer, What can he actually do musically by himself?"

You people have yet to find fault in my logic.

Being a producer isn't about doing it all yourself, its having the vision for the song to bring it to completion. Rick Rubin, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones are regarded as musical geniuses, producer elites, do you think they played every instrument on the songs they produced?

Which is totally fine. I'm not arguing against that. I actually believe in that. That's not what this is about. Kanye doesn't HAVE vision, he's a thief, he takes other peoples music and take's credit for it as if it's his own. Yes, as a producer you must have vision, but you also have to understand that sampling is far easier than actually having to learn everything you need to leran to do what the people did in the songs that you are sampling. "Rick Rubin, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones" can at least write music, and understand musical theory. Can Kanye? Maybe. But what has he done to suggest that he knows how?

Many sample based producers like Kanye West are a prime example of people who are simply remixing old songs into beats by putting a drum track on it. Very impressive. loll. So when he says that he's a musical genius, sensible people laugh at him, not just because he isn't one, but because he may actually think it's true.

 

[Rekordhead]

Lol.. Do you even read threads? Or do you just skim through threads?

All of The Lights
Produced by: Kanye West, AND Jeff Bhasker


Flashing Lights:
Produced by: Kanye West, AND Eric Hudson

Not to mention that not only are those two examples BASIC beats that a third grader could make, but "Yeezus" was NOT a good album, and is DEFIANTLY NOT Kanye's best work
sonically.

I said " rarely hear a song that Kanye has made from scratch, and the one's that I HAVE heard from "scratch" are usually co-produced E.G. Jay-Z, Kid Cudi, etc. Sooo.. I don't see why everyone's calling him a "Musical Genius".

and to prove me wrong you post TWO BASIC songs that were Co-Produced. Nice..

Still, nobody wants to answer my questions. "what percentage of his songs are made by other people? Then answer, What can he actually do musically by himself?"
You people have yet to find fault in my logic.

Read my other post, being a "musical genius" or a top producer has nothing to do with creating beats from scratch all by yourself, thats being a composer. Producers make the whole song happen. Do you think those co-producers would have been able to make those songs by themselves? Not "could have" because every song in the word is recreateable, but "would have" as in came up with it without Kanye? Music is just as much if not more about the idea as it is actually writing.

Which is totally fine. I'm not arguing against that. I actually believe in that. That's not what this is about. Kanye doesn't HAVE vision, he's a thief, he takes other peoples music and take's credit for it as if it's his own. Yes, as a producer you must have vision, but you also have to understand that sampling is far easier than actually having to learn everything you need to leran to do what the people did in the songs that you are sampling. "Rick Rubin, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones" can at least write music, and understand musical theory. Can Kanye? Maybe. But what has he done to suggest that he knows how?

Many sample based producers like Kanye West are a prime example of people who are simply remixing old songs into beats by putting a drum track on it. Very impressive. loll. So when he says that he's a musical genius, sensible people laugh at him, not just because he isn't one, but because he may actually think it's true.

Sampling isn't as much about musicianship as it is about art. You are very close-minded if you don't see the art in it.

 

[98bullz]

Sampling isn't as much about musicianship as it is about art. You are very close-minded if you don't see the art in it.

I think you're taking my words out of context. As stated in the OP, if you're FLIPPING a sample, and turning it into something surprisingly new. Then yes. Sampling IS an art.

But if you're looping your favorite part of an old song, and running it through a drum machine to make it "hip-hopable" then I have bad news for you..You're doing it wrong.

An empty insult won't do anything here. You'll do anything to avoid the obvious answer to my question. A while ago Kanye West "designed" a plain white T-Shirt, and sold them for over $100 each, and actually sold all of them out. Now is that because his plain white shirt is an incredible design? Or is it because of the cult like personality he has, and his cult like fan base?

This is nothing new though, many so called "greats" are half as great as people say they are (Cough, Cough, Drake, Kendrick). Keep on stanning if you want though. lol.