Cartridge question - Wobbly needle - Stanton 500 AL II

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tlalocelotl

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I just bought a Stanton 500 AL II cartridge to replace one of the Numark ones I got in my turntable package. When I scratch on the Numark, the needle only moves so much. When I scratch on the Stanton, the needle (while still in the groove) seems to wobble a bit more. It's on fairly straight. Screws are right. This is on a Numark TT 1510.

It doesn't immediatly jump off songs, in fact I can scratch for a bit okay.

Do I need to provide more detail or do you feel me?

TT
 
I hear that, bro. The needle weight might be too light, and since the 500 is kind of light from the beginning it could cause it to wobble a bit. Try more weight, and if necessary, do what we used to do when we were kids and had Technics SL2D's - glue a quarter on top of the headshell! Yes, you will indefinitely destroy your records, but it won't wobble!:D
 
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Yup... Adding weight would surely help out. Surely with the price of having nice size ditches instread of grooves on your scratch records!!! I used to put a nickel on my 500AL. And you can tell which part of the scratch records I used most because it would be a lighter color groove!!

I know that sometimes you can't do any adjustment to make your needle performs any better, but it sure doesn't hurt to try several alignments...

Balance: Adjust the weight of you tonearm counter-balance to be one or two grams above what is recommended for the cartridge.

Needle alignment: Play around with the way your cartridge attaches to the headshell. I found that with those Stanton 500, you have to rotate the cartridge a bit clockwise (looking down on the TOP of the headshell). This will caused the audio level to be different on the right and left channel, but at least, it won't skip as much.

Try that and I hope it helps out some...

Good luck,
DjJinx
 
Okay. Since there are manyways to look "down" on the head shell... if I rotate it, should it be pointed "toe in" to the record, or toe out?
 
Balancing Cartridges and Basic Physics

DjJinx said:
Yup... Adding weight would surely help out.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. 9 times out of 10 adding weight to the headshell end adds MORE instability.

It's simple physics. If you add more weight to the headshell/cartrige/stylus then you are increasing its mass, and therefore its inertia. Inertia is the ability of an object to cope with changes in direction. The higher the inertia, the harder it is for said object to change direction (i.e. more force is needed to make it change direction). Cartridges exhibit inertia with a side-to-side wobbling motion because when scratching or backcueing, forces pull the cartridge in towards the centre of the record (forward scratch/cue) and out towards the edge of the record (backward scratch/cue). Also, the faster something moves the greater inertia it has - this partly explains why cartridges skip when performing scratches with increasing complexity.

The solution: try backing the weight OFF the headshell - especially if you have the black weight plate installed. In effect what you're doing is reducing the cartridge's mass and therefore, its inertia. In only a few instances have I found that adding weight increases stability BUT you still have to compensate by backing off the tonearm weight.
 
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Sure, Mr. Clarity... Your theory sounds just fine... IF you are talking about an object in motion in a frictionless world. Try to understand the nature of a record... it's groove is in the shape of a "V" Therefore, putting more force on the cartridge create higher friction which would keeps it from jumping the track. Also, adding more weight produce more mass on the cartridge... and therefore, use our friendly gravity to help pulls the needle snugly on the track... :)

DjJinx
 
Oh... oops... I forgot to clarify myself...

it's toe-OUT, bro... Looking down on the TOP SIDE of the headshell... Heck, you can probably try it both ways and see what would give better result.

DjJinx
 
Hi DjJinx,

I agree with you. If you increase the weight of the cartridge you will definitely improve tracking within the groove because of gravity, but then you're only talking about two dimensions/forces which are up and down.

Inertia comes into play with the side-to-side motion of the cartridge. It's like the big car vs. small car argument. A big car isn't so great at going through corners at high speed because you've got a lot more weight to shift in a short space of time. Small cars on the other hand are more controllable through corners at high speed because they've got less weight to move, and therefore have less inertia.

It's good to have a robust discussion on stuff like this. There's not enough of it in the DJ world.

:cheers:

clarity
 
take the little weight off from the end off your arm if you have one in the numarks, technics have a small screw on weight that fits diectly inot the end of the arm, this needs to be taken off for 500s, do the same if you have them on your numarks then set them up again, ie find zero balance then wind on the weight unitl its set right
 
I tried toe out, that does work better. I'll try reducing the weight as well, as just an experiment.
 
Did the experiment.

Guess what? You're both right! And you're both wrong.

With decreased weight, the cardtrige does less inward and outward wiggling. However it jumps out of the groove easier.

With the increased weight, the cartridge does a lot of the wiggling, but it jumps out of the groove less.

I'd try nickels, but I'm not ready to damage my records yet. It's not THAT bad. Besides, I'm still learning. If I can keep these tables under control, the real thing should be easier.

Numark TT 1510 by the way. BELT. Sucky sucky sucky.
 
haa haa haa.. cool bro... Good it works out for ya... 8o) Too bad my theory is part wrong (or part right... but what the heck... I'm a pessimist!!! haa haa haa) Good luck scratching and djing, bro.:)

DjJinx
 
Cool, that's what it's all about!

You've just got to find the right settings for your style.

Best of luck!:dj:
 
Yeah, thanks for the help.

I picked up a BPM counter for a crutch to help me get into it. Once I get a decent handle on things I'll be moving up to new equipment, and hopefully a more steady table.
 
Hi, Clarity...

I didn't have time this morning to write a reply disgusing more about the weight thing this morning because i was running late to work... but here's what I think... :)

I agree with you about the weight and the handling of the car to a certain point. But I still think that you need to have enough weight to hold down the cartridge IF the cartridge is aligned properly (I'll go more into that in a minute). With your example, a heavy car sure has more momentum and tend to 'plow' through when it tries to do a tight turn. But the weight of the car is still very important because if the car is too light, there will not be enough force exerted on the tires and the ground. The tires has a certain coefficient of friction. That, along with the force putting down on it gives you the ability for the car to 'hug' the road. So, a car can't be too light and also can't be too heavy. There's an equilibrium there for the optimum friction force.

When it comes to cartridge, most of them are not aligned exactly how they should be aligned - to travel along the tangent line of the record. Therefore, when the record is pulled back, there will be a lateral force acting on the cartridge along the radius of the record. This cause the cartridge to wobble. If the cartridge is too heavy, this lateral momentum will be enough to cause the needle to jump the track. This is possibly why it seems to jump less if the weight is decreased...

Then again... What the heck do I know!!! haa haa... Last Physics class I took was in college. Physics wasn't even my major - my major was Electrical Engineer. I'll leave all the dynamics and static physics to them Mechanical Engineers...

Take care,
Dj Jinx.
 
Hey DjJinx,

Excellent explanation! I suppose we're both right and as you eloquently put it:

"So, a car can't be too light and also can't be too heavy. There's an equilibrium there for the optimum friction force."

You have to find the balance which is right for the type of driving (i.e. DJing, scratching) that you do.

IMHO too many people think buying a new cartridge will solve all their problems - but it's just like adding new hardware to your computer. You have to set it up the correct way or it won't work. Not to mention that technique counts for a lot.

AAaaaarrrrgggghhhh! TOO MANY ANALOGIES!!!! LOL!

And yeah, the last time I took Physics was in first year of University (ahhh, the good old days) and I ended up finishing a Marketing degree, so what the hell do I know? :D

Peace,

clarity
 
DjJinx said:
The tires has a certain coefficient of friction. That, along with the force putting down on it gives you the ability for the car to 'hug' the road.
Don't mean to be picky, but the coefficient or friction is determined (partly) by the amount of force pulling down on the car.

Sorry, i'm just pissed cause I think i did ****ty on my physics exam.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
When I bought my decks, I bought a pair of 520sk's. One wobbled really bad like you described, no matter how I turned it, moved it forward or back, etc. I watched it in the groove and the needle wasn't quite perpendicular to the groove. The other was. So I took it back for an exchange, and the new one worked much better. This could be the problem, but not quite as likely.

What weight are you using your carts at? Stantons don't need to be broken in as much as Shures from what I've heard, but these 520sk's definitely track better once they've been used several hours. I started them out at 3, and as they broke in and I got better at handling vinyl, I've backed them down to 2.3g. My carts are turned with the stylus end slightly closer to the spindle, but I only have a little imbalance. I thought I had more difference before, but it was my mixer, which is fixed now.
 
When I just play, nothing fancy at all, I back it off to the lightest weight possible. When I'm beatmatching, I edge on the weight a little bit. I'm betting 1.5 around there. I can't tell, this damn weight thing is confusing. The ring that the #s is on rotates... I don't get that. When I scratching I put the weight on 100%.

TT
 
Another thing worth looking at before messing around with the needle... make sure that the scratch record you are using is relatively flat. And the most important thing is to make sure that the scratch record itself isn't moving around when you pull it back and push it forward. Sometimes the middle hole of the record is punched through too big and the record doesn't sit snuggly on the platter. I usually take a small strip of paper and put it through the hole as I put it through the post of the turntable...

Dj Jinx.
 
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