True or false?

[bandcoach]

Please give me a break - at the start and end of the day any sound you hear is analogue

You make it sound like you resent having had to go through a phase of using gear that was sub-par compared to today's gear - every generation feels the same more or less - doing it with digital or with analogue gear is a question of personal taste.

Personally I prefer to twist the knob in real-time than set up an automation curve that sort of mimics what I want to do.

You must have sold your SH101's a while ago if you got 80 quid for your mod grip and less than that for each or both of the ones you sold. In the last year these have been steadily going for a AU$1000+ each (ca. 350-400 quid) - almost tempting to put mine up, but not quite.

As for the fix it in the mix to make it sound analogue, sure, why not, but why not just use the original sound in the first place?

 

[Lamster]

Oh yes the SH101's went years ago along with the Juno6 Poly800 Cs15 and Vox Continental.
I take your point that everything is analog in that we hear the soundwaves from the movement of the air caused by the mechanical movement of the speaker. Its just that different kit moves the speaker differently. To that end we could argue that mains hum is analog but everone hates that? There again you could sample it and use it for bass? There is always a way to get close to the sound you want even if you don't have the bit of kit usually associated with making that sound. It just easier if you have it. Anyway a bit off topic I still think the Minibrute is the Bass Station for 2012

 

[Salem Beats]

[...] I prefer to twist the knob in real-time than set up an automation curve that sort of mimics what I want to do. [...]

More of a "hardware vs software" thing than a "digital vs analog" one... Lol.

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[bandcoach]

Ummmm no the movement of the knob is analogue, an automation curve by it's nature is a digital thing

Analogue => Continuous, without a break
Digital => Discrete steps

 

[Salem Beats]

Ummmm no the movement of the knob is analogue, an automation curve by it's nature is a digital thing

Analogue => Continuous, without a break
Digital => Discrete steps

Twisting a knob is neither analog nor digital. It's merely physical -- You can twist a knob that controls either analog circuitry or digital controls. Respectively, you usually have either a "smooth" continuous knob or a "detented" knob with discrete positions.

I just wanted to clarify this, because too many people get the sentiment that analog synths are the way to get "hands-on" with your music. Some people mistakenly associate "analog" with "real", and "digital" with "fake".

I'm sure you're well aware of this but I want to clarify to all of our readers -- the technology used in generating your sound has nothing to do with how "hands-on" your interface is. The "Analog vs Digital" divide has as much to do with interface, workflow, and playability as your choice of hairstyle has to do with the intensity of the earthquakes in Japan.

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[Lamster]

Ummmm no the movement of the knob is analogue, an automation curve by it's nature is a digital thing

Mmmm Ok not a Knob but a slider instead. Not very analog on my JD800 well only as analog as the Data entry wheel or slider on other digital synths. Thanks for the Physics lesson now for one in electronics?
It depends on whether the Knob in question is a Pot or a continuous encoder as one is supplying a control voltage "A Potential Divider" (analog) and the other 0's and 1's "logic" (Digital then) On a digital synth the movement of pots or key presses is fed through an ADC to the CPU which controls the DSP fed to a DAC and out to your ears via Phones Amp/Speakers.
Analog/Digital at what point is it Analog,Hybrid or Digital If the signal path is all Analog then its analog this includes DCO's on Juno 6,60,106 their analog too! so not Hybrid as it is often called. Hybrid is your pure DCO or Wavetable Osc and analog VCF VCA, PPG Kawai K3. Digital Is DX7 Operators and algorithms and anything else that uses "software" to process the sound in the digital domain.
on quotes didn't vangelis say this "Personally I prefer to twist the knob in real-time than set up an automation curve that sort of mimics what I want to do." also think he mentioned somthing about I could do it in a few minutes in software or a split second with hardware or have I missed the Bus? or Coach

 

[Salem Beats]

Ummmm no the movement of the knob is analogue, an automation curve by it's nature is a digital thing

Mmmm Ok not a Knob but a slider instead. Not very analog on my JD800 well only as analog as the Data entry wheel or slider on other digital synths. Thanks for the Physics lesson now for one in electronics?
It depends on whether the Knob in question is a Pot or a continuous encoder as one is supplying a control voltage "A Potential Divider" (analog) and the other 0's and 1's "logic" (Digital then) On a digital synth the movement of pots or key presses is fed through an ADC to the CPU which controls the DSP fed to a DAC and out to your ears via Phones Amp/Speakers.
Analog/Digital at what point is it Analog,Hybrid or Digital If the signal path is all Analog then its analog this includes DCO's on Juno 6,60,106 their analog too! so not Hybrid as it is often called. Hybrid is your pure DCO or Wavetable Osc and analog VCF VCA, PPG Kawai K3. Digital Is DX7 Operators and algorithms and anything else that uses "software" to process the sound in the digital domain.
on quotes didn't vangelis say this "Personally I prefer to twist the knob in real-time than set up an automation curve that sort of mimics what I want to do." also think he mentioned somthing about I could do it in a few minutes in software or a split second with hardware or have I missed the Bus? or Coach

And here all I wanted to point out was that the tactile interface provided by hardware has nothing to do with the "digital vs analog" debate. Lol.

-Ki
Salem Beats

 

[krushing]

And here all I wanted to point out was that the tactile interface provided by hardware has nothing to do with the "digital vs analog" debate. Lol.

-Ki
Salem Beats

Well, the physical movement of a non-detented, continuous knob is analogue, whether or not the output of the values it controls is

 

[infradead]

for me it comes down to my work flow and what i enjoy more
and it turns out i enjoy being broke.

i like the amount of experimentation that a my modular leads to and just how much i can do with everything. have a clock divider? also makes a pretty good sub octave generator. its amazingly addictive and every magical moment unless i'm recording can never be relived or repeated quite the same.


a friend and i ****ing around the other morning.

 

[krushing]

Workflow is pretty much the thing for me - I don't especially care whether or not something is analog, but it often comes into play - if I can get the sound I want in seconds instead of fiddling around for a long time to get something digital to sound analog (for example), assigning control surface knobs to virtual ones and whatnot, I'll take the device that gives me those instant results (and maybe something more) in a heartbeat. Making sounds on softsynths, no matter how good they sound, is never quite as inspiring as a dedicated interface. Of course you use whatever you can afford and whichever the way you prefer working, but I'm constantly sliding more and more towards just having that interface in the first place, if possible/feasible.

 

[Lamster]

Workflow is pretty much the thing for me - I don't especially care whether or not something is analog, but it often comes into play - if I can get the sound I want in seconds instead of fiddling around for a long time to get something digital to sound analog (for example), assigning control surface knobs to virtual ones and whatnot, I'll take the device that gives me those instant results (and maybe something more) in a heartbeat. Making sounds on softsynths, no matter how good they sound, is never quite as inspiring as a dedicated interface. Of course you use whatever you can afford and whichever the way you prefer working, but I'm constantly sliding more and more towards just having that interface in the first place, if possible/feasible.

Well said. I think that for me is what I liked about analog synths. You could "Feel the changes you were making" The sound wasn't always the best.The JD800 very Digital and meligned has that feel to the way you program it if it had 4 times the controls on the front so that you could adjust everything in real time instead of selecting which part you want to adjust it would have the feel of a "classic" Having said that the original point of would all the Knobs and pots put people off the minibrute.I think not there isn't that much too it and the fact that under each control there is a bit of text that gives you a clue to what it does makes it "simples" Its all that digital jargon like operators algorithms dcf control curves and such that no one can understand. The words " Welcome to DX" still reads to me " The Best of Luck Mate"

 

[infradead]

The words " Welcome to DX" still reads to me " The Best of Luck Mate"

That's a great quote!

 

[Pbunky1970]

"Welcome to DX " was usually followed by a sigh of exasperation for me, followed by a string of curses, reaching a crescendo of my tossing it into the closet for another day. What a nightmare, everything ended up sounding like an EP...you'd have a cool sound working, change something and...f*******ck!!!

There is no doubt having a dedicated interface is best. I love the sound of Jupiter 8V, but it is a little tedious working it with the Novation SL, moreso when you know what knobs you want to tweak, right now, to get to a good starting point. AND there is a huge difference in how analog filters sound compared to their VA or digital conterparts, especially while knob tweaking. There is just more life to the analog filter. I remember someone referring to them having a certain "juice" to them. It is true.

Back to the original topic of the Minibrute. It is a cool instrument and from what I have heard in the videos, sounds good. It is just too "so what" for me. A couple hundred more and you have a MoPHo keyboard, and a lot more bang for the buck.

 

[ultra auris]

re

I think the faders and pots are made pure analog because their target audience wants to tweak them live and is historicaly been unhappy with all the stepping of modern analogs.

 

[bandcoach]

Well, the physical movement of a non-detented, continuous knob is analogue, whether or not the output of the values it controls is

My point exactly

as for dx and others I had access to the jx3p which was Roland's competitor synth to the dx7 and it was at least predictable because of the use of existing modular synth language and affect in the various sections of the sound design. A ***** to program without the dedicated programmer, but it could be done.

I steered clear of the DX series for a long time because they were inscrutable, poorly documented and the manuals were written as if they were targeted at long time users instead of beginners.

 

[Pbunky1970]

I owned a jx3p for awhile, and was certainly on the level of dx synth as far as difficulty to program (I did not have the pg200). The big difference is that it was still analog (2dco per voice) Not as good sounding as the junos, but if not for a blown power supply I would still own it. Always looking for another. Don't care if I ever see another dx.

 

[bandcoach]

Ummmm no the movement of the knob is analogue, an automation curve by it's nature is a digital thing

Mmmm Ok not a Knob but a slider instead. Not very analog on my JD800 well only as analog as the Data entry wheel or slider on other digital synths. Thanks for the Physics lesson now for one in electronics?
It depends on whether the Knob in question is a Pot or a continuous encoder as one is supplying a control voltage "A Potential Divider" (analog) and the other 0's and 1's "logic" (Digital then) On a digital synth the movement of pots or key presses is fed through an ADC to the CPU which controls the DSP fed to a DAC and out to your ears via Phones Amp/Speakers.
Analog/Digital at what point is it Analog,Hybrid or Digital If the signal path is all Analog then its analog this includes DCO's on Juno 6,60,106 their analog too! so not Hybrid as it is often called. Hybrid is your pure DCO or Wavetable Osc and analog VCF VCA, PPG Kawai K3. Digital Is DX7 Operators and algorithms and anything else that uses "software" to process the sound in the digital domain.
on quotes didn't vangelis say this "Personally I prefer to twist the knob in real-time than set up an automation curve that sort of mimics what I want to do." also think he mentioned somthing about I could do it in a few minutes in software or a split second with hardware or have I missed the Bus? or Coach

On Vangelis, I had not realised he had said something like that in recent times - I do know that he has a preference for hardware over software but that is based on an early to mid 1980's Keyboard interview.

As for the electronics nothing new in that lot, what I have been teaching to those who want to know since the mid 1980's also.....

and thank you for the less than subtle play on words.....

 

[Lamster]

On Vangelis, I had not realised he had said something like that in recent times - I do know that he has a preference for hardware over software but that is based on an early to mid 1980's Keyboard interview.

As for the electronics nothing new in that lot, what I have been teaching to those who want to know since the mid 1980's also.....

and thank you for the less than subtle play on words.....

You are most welcome!

Not my quote, but a mate of mine said " Na I prefer Knobs That digital stuff is like trying to decorate the landing and stairs through the letterbox"

 

[DonaldCrunk]

Analog hardware is something that musicians geek out on when they want to avoid the effort to improve their playing technique:

playing what? keyboards? how in the world is any "keyboard" technique required for musicians in 2012? you _are_ using a computer, right? then it's a non issue. anyone can play anything with a midi sequencer. it doesn't matter.

i'm surrounded by random instruments that i can play with some degree of competency or another, and white and black keys with notes assigned to them are only one arbitrary method of producing western-scale tones. there's so many others it's not funny, and there's so many sounds that exist beyond the realm of the traditional that can never be accessed by a typical bedroom beat-production studio. as mentioned earlier, it has nothing to do with analog or digital. it has to do with how you make music!

Sorry if any of this is a little blunt, but I have to call it like I see it. If true analog synths integrated well into the modern audio workstation flow, I wouldn't be so harsh, but the fact-of-the-matter is that they can only slow you down. It has nothing to do with complexity -- some of these new digital software synths are even more complex than that very large modular synth in the OP.

a properly integrated 'analog' studio - to speak more loosely, that is a studio that uses discrete pieces of hardware rather than an integrated system all running on a computer - can accomplish an entire 'song' or 'beat' or 'track' or whatever your nomenclature of choice is in one pass of recording. i've never been able to accomplish this on the computer. it's all about setting up little rinky-dink loops of whatever. you'll just end up with variations on a theme everytime, which is why there's still (somehow) a ton of dudes on this site still making beats in 2012. they're confused as to why their variation on the theme doesn't make $$$. maybe everyone is missing something fundamental about music making in this new era? hmm.

 

[Salem Beats]

playing what? keyboards? how in the world is any "keyboard" technique required for musicians in 2012? you _are_ using a computer, right? then it's a non issue. anyone can play anything with a midi sequencer. it doesn't matter.

i'm surrounded by random instruments that i can play with some degree of competency or another, and white and black keys with notes assigned to them are only one arbitrary method of producing western-scale tones. there's so many others it's not funny, and there's so many sounds that exist beyond the realm of the traditional that can never be accessed by a typical bedroom beat-production studio. as mentioned earlier, it has nothing to do with analog or digital. it has to do with how you make music!





a properly integrated 'analog' studio - to speak more loosely, that is a studio that uses discrete pieces of hardware rather than an integrated system all running on a computer - can accomplish an entire 'song' or 'beat' or 'track' or whatever your nomenclature of choice is in one pass of recording. i've never been able to accomplish this on the computer. it's all about setting up little rinky-dink loops of whatever. you'll just end up with variations on a theme everytime, which is why there's still (somehow) a ton of dudes on this site still making beats in 2012. they're confused as to why their variation on the theme doesn't make $$$. maybe everyone is missing something fundamental about music making in this new era? hmm.

I dunno, I make a few hundred a month personally. For as little time as I put into it (I have a day job, girlfriend, and daughter that also demand my attention, to speak nothing of my other interests outside music), that's not bad at all.

Keyboard technique is still absolutely essential. If you're quantizing everything to 1/16 notes anyways, then I suppose that you could potentially click in your music, and then being able to play would simply be a major time-saver.
However, you're missing a key (no pun intended) part of the creative process -- the path that you choose to using in creating something affects the ideas that branch out from its creation. A painter comes up with different ideas when he is using the thick, dark markings of oil-based paints on canvas rather than the lightweight semi-translucent colors of watercolor paints. Process affects the product past the difference in technical capabilities of the different processes (quite a mouthful of a phrase, read it slowly).
There are specific and elaborate musical ideas that you won't come up with unless you can play well enough to "discover" them for yourself. But I digress -- getting further into this would be getting into a discussion on music theory and technique and their level of importance in the creative process. That's a whole religious battle in-and-of itself. Suffice to say that if you're not respecting your MIDI controller as a normal instrument, you might as well just sell it.

-Ki
Salem Beats