Former CEO of Open Labs starts NEW COMPANY...

[j.troup]

Well damn, guess I look like a dumbass. I thought M-Fusion was the program that housed the Timbaland sounds you were cryin about.
Either way, they are not obligated to upgrade it.

Wait. I just googled it and M-Fusion is a full piece of software with a gui and everything. That's not just a driver.


Or is it M-fusion's lack of a driver update that is keeping you from going 64-bit?


EDIT: and since the Miko isn't running a dedicated OS, what's stopping you from purchasing a new motherboard, ram, etc. And upgrading it yourself? Keep the housing and max out the internals.

This is what I've been trying to tell you.


Open Labs customized a version of MFusion, to be the DRIVERS for the hardware in the unit. So without MFusion, you can't use your black & white keys. You can't use the faders, knobs and buttons. Basically, what you're left with is a computer.

This was my problem. If I upgraded to Windows 7 x86, I could get MFusion to work, but i would lose my sound library, because Proteus doesn't work in Windows 7.

Okay, i'm cool with that, but i'm still stuck at 32 bit...same thing as Windows XP, cuz honestly, I could give a shit about those Timbaland sounds, as i never used them anyway.

What I do care about, is using my EWQL libraries, my Omnisphere, and my Waves plugins in my projects, because those are what I use the most. And at 32 bit, with only 2gb of RAM addressing, I CAN'T.


They aren't obligated to put out new drivers, no. No company is. But it's just good customer service.


I'm not asking for all the new features of the new OL boards. I'm not asking for all the new software on the OL boards. I don't even use the faders, knobs and buttons on my Miko. Never have.

But I NEED those piano keys on the Miko. And I NEED 64 bit drivers.


And I'm willing to pay for the drivers. I'm okay with paying up to like $500 - $600 to get 64 bit drivers.


But I won't pay $3049. That's outrageous, because I don't need everything that comes in that upgrade for that price.

All I need are the 64 bit Drivers so my hardware will work with a 64 bit OS. And if they don't want to give it to me then that's their right...but it's also my right to switch to a product that will give it to me, and no longer support the other guys.


And trust me...I wasn't the only one asking for 64 bit, as there were a good number of people on the OL forums asking for the same thing, and have been asking for the same thing for over a year now.



I can keep the housing, and max out the internals, sure. I could go x64, buy a new mobo, processor, RAM, etc. But I'd still lose the functionality of the piano keys, because they depend on the MFusion drivers.



See my dilemma?

 

[ultra auris]

remember motorola based macs? You were screwed with those once they changed to intel.

 

[lilro]

This is what I've been trying to tell you.


Open Labs customized a version of MFusion, to be the DRIVERS for the hardware in the unit. So without MFusion, you can't use your black & white keys. You can't use the faders, knobs and buttons. Basically, what you're left with is a computer.

This was my problem. If I upgraded to Windows 7 x86, I could get MFusion to work, but i would lose my sound library, because Proteus doesn't work in Windows 7.

Okay, i'm cool with that, but i'm still stuck at 32 bit...same thing as Windows XP, cuz honestly, I could give a shit about those Timbaland sounds, as i never used them anyway.

What I do care about, is using my EWQL libraries, my Omnisphere, and my Waves plugins in my projects, because those are what I use the most. And at 32 bit, with only 2gb of RAM addressing, I CAN'T.


They aren't obligated to put out new drivers, no. No company is. But it's just good customer service.


I'm not asking for all the new features of the new OL boards. I'm not asking for all the new software on the OL boards. I don't even use the faders, knobs and buttons on my Miko. Never have.

But I NEED those piano keys on the Miko. And I NEED 64 bit drivers.


And I'm willing to pay for the drivers. I'm okay with paying up to like $500 - $600 to get 64 bit drivers.


But I won't pay $3049. That's outrageous, because I don't need everything that comes in that upgrade for that price.

All I need are the 64 bit Drivers so my hardware will work with a 64 bit OS. And if they don't want to give it to me then that's their right...but it's also my right to switch to a product that will give it to me, and no longer support the other guys.


And trust me...I wasn't the only one asking for 64 bit, as there were a good number of people on the OL forums asking for the same thing, and have been asking for the same thing for over a year now.

Ok I see what you're saying now. And I pretty much agree. But if all you need is the keys, why not just get a midi keyboard. These type of things are what I was saying when the Miko/neko first dropped. These all-in-one devices always turn out to be shit when it comes to maintenance.

And on the professional side, you were endorsed by them. So you can't really look at the situation like a typical customer. If Lebron got a Sprite endorsement deal and turns around and does a Mountain Dew commercial, Sprite is gonna have a problem with it.

IMO, it seems like you're being taken for a ride. That the blade will end up just like the Miko.

Just like a laptop vs. desktop, there are gonna be some drawbacks to having a portable studio. A very short list of upgrades being one of them. You and OL had a different understanding of what "upgradeable" pertained to.

I think my idea I had some pages back about interchangeable modules would work really well for what you're trying to do. Pitch it to Victor Wong.


Peace.

 

[j.troup]

Ok I see what you're saying now. And I pretty much agree. But if all you need is the keys, why not just get a midi keyboard. These type of things are what I was saying when the Miko/neko first dropped. These all-in-one devices always turn out to be shit when it comes to maintenance.

And on the professional side, you were endorsed by them. So you can't really look at the situation like a typical customer. If Lebron got a Sprite endorsement deal and turns around and does a Mountain Dew commercial, Sprite is gonna have a problem with it.

IMO, it seems like you're being taken for a ride. That the blade will end up just like the Miko.

Just like a laptop vs. desktop, there are gonna be some drawbacks to having a portable studio. A very short list of upgrades being one of them. You and OL had a different understanding of what "upgradeable" pertained to.

I think my idea I had some pages back about interchangeable modules would work really well for what you're trying to do. Pitch it to Victor Wong.


Peace.

I have a Triton and a Fantom, and i have them connected via Midi to the OL Miko. So could very well use those keys. But then, I just have a $5000 computer, and that's not what I paid for.

And on the professional side, yes, I was endorsed by them. And yes, I've been cheerleader #1 for the past few years for them. I know that I've personally sold about 5 of those units. I know this for a fact.

The fact that I was endorsed by them, you wouldn't think they would go thru greater lengths to make me happy.

And you have to remember, that yes, I'm endorsed by them, but I have clients to serve. And my clients don't understand "I had to use the fake sounding Triton strings in your project instead of the EWQL real sounding ones, because my Miko can't handle it."

They don't understand "I can't mix your song correctly, because my Miko can't handle the plugins".


So yes I was endorsed by Open Labs, but when their product and lack of upgrades gets in the way of me serving my clients and running my business, then I have to go...endorsement or not.


And that's what it was. Open Labs had been promising me 64 Bit upgrade paths for over a year. I called them one week before I bought my Music Computing gear, just to see what was going on with 64 bit...they still had nothing for me.


I have a business to run, and my loyalties lie with my CUSTOMERS.



I've been in IT for a very long time...I cut my teeth on DOS on a 286, back when I worked for the IRS. So I know how the technology changes, and everything isn't always upgradeable to everything else.

I sold computers for about 5 years, so I know all about what's acceptable and what isn't, in terms of changing technology.

When my Pentium 3 couldn't run Windows XP, I wasn't mad, I bought a new computer. When my Pentium 4 couldn't effectively run the later versions of Cubase, I didn't get mad, I bought a dual core. When that was no longer cutting it, I bought a Miko.


But in every one of those instances, it was the hardware that no longer cut the mustard. In this case, the hardware is great...it's the DRIVERS that are the issue.


And yes, at some point, I will out grow the Studio blade too...but I don't expect to not be able to run the programs that come out in 2 years, just because of hardware drivers.

If something similar happens, where MC's support is preventing me from serving my clients, then I'll partner up with a company that allows me to better serve my clients.

Because my customers come FIRST. They say jump, I say how high. That's how business goes.

 

[lilro]

They don't understand "I can't mix your song correctly, because my Miko can't handle the plugins".

So what were you using before you got the Miko? It sounds like you value the look of the project over the audio. I understand being flashy makes for a quick sale, but how is the Miko preventing anything? Did you use those plugins before? How was the Miko detrimental to your workflow other than being a convenient distraction?

I hope I'm not coming across as an ******* or hater or anything, these are genuine questions. I strive to understand human nature so I ALWAYS ask questions of why, and how.

 

[j.troup]

So what were you using before you got the Miko? It sounds like you value the look of the project over the audio. I understand being flashy makes for a quick sale, but how is the Miko preventing anything? Did you use those plugins before? How was the Miko detrimental to your workflow other than being a convenient distraction?

I hope I'm not coming across as an ******* or hater or anything, these are genuine questions. I strive to understand human nature so I ALWAYS ask questions of why, and how.

Nah, it's cool, now that we got that whole MFusion/Driver thing squared away.



I got the Miko in 2008. Before that, I was on a Core2Duo, 3 GB Ram system. I was running Cubase SX2/3, and Reason. Minimal plugins, and my outboard gear. It worked great for that.

Over the past year, I've upgraded my tools greatly. Cubase 5. Omnisphere. EWQL VSTi's. Waves SSL4000 and JJP bundles.

My production has gotten more complex too. Before the Miko, my projects might be 30 tracks max. Reason was the only "VST". Now, my projects can get up to 100 tracks, with all of the above plug-ins.

Problem is, each one of those VST's are RAM hungry. That was my whole issue. RAM. And 32 bit windows only gives me 2GB of RAM. That doesn't cut it in the later projects that I was doing.

I've upgraded my plugins as much as possible, to less resource intensive versions. There's nothing more I could have done, but go to 64 bit.


The Miko was necessary before, as it was a significant upgrade beyond my Core2Duo, in terms of processing power. But right now, processing power isn't my issue. It's having the RAM to run my plugins. That's my sole issue.

The only way around that is to have more RAM available to run my apps and plugins. The only way this is achieved is by going 64 bit.



The "look" of the project means nothing. I need to be able to use the tools I need to use, so that the audio comes out as it was intended.

The Miko, sitting on a 32 bit OS, does not provide enough RAM to handle my plugins and projects anymore.


My skills have grown, thus requiring different tools...and unfortunately, just like older plugins didn't cut it, the Miko no longer cuts it.

 

[lilro]

Nah, it's cool, now that we got that whole MFusion/Driver thing squared away.



I got the Miko in 2008. Before that, I was on a Core2Duo, 3 GB Ram system. I was running Cubase SX2/3, and Reason. Minimal plugins, and my outboard gear. It worked great for that.

Over the past year, I've upgraded my tools greatly. Cubase 5. Omnisphere. EWQL VSTi's. Waves SSL4000 and JJP bundles.

My production has gotten more complex too. Before the Miko, my projects might be 30 tracks max. Reason was the only "VST". Now, my projects can get up to 100 tracks, with all of the above plug-ins.

Problem is, each one of those VST's are RAM hungry. That was my whole issue. RAM. And 32 bit windows only gives me 2GB of RAM. That doesn't cut it in the later projects that I was doing.

I've upgraded my plugins as much as possible, to less resource intensive versions. There's nothing more I could have done, but go to 64 bit.


The Miko was necessary before, as it was a significant upgrade beyond my Core2Duo, in terms of processing power. But right now, processing power isn't my issue. It's having the RAM to run my plugins. That's my sole issue.

The only way around that is to have more RAM available to run my apps and plugins. The only way this is achieved is by going 64 bit.



The "look" of the project means nothing. I need to be able to use the tools I need to use, so that the audio comes out as it was intended.

The Miko, sitting on a 32 bit OS, does not provide enough RAM to handle my plugins and projects anymore.


My skills have grown, thus requiring different tools...and unfortunately, just like older plugins didn't cut it, the Miko no longer cuts it.

Ah ok.

 

[kaydigi]

Now that it's all roses, can we get impressions or are you loading all your stuff off the Miko before you do anything?

 

[j.troup]

Now that it's all roses, can we get impressions or are you loading all your stuff off the Miko before you do anything?

I have to load up all my software before I can get started making music on it. That's gonna take a few days.


I got my second hard drive in there last night, got my data copied over, and started loading the apps.

I have to copy the huge libraries over tonight. I got like 100 GB of sound libraries that i have to copy over.

 

[ptonemusic]

Why don't you get some more ram first?

I was under the impression most of those instruments could address their own ram allocation seperate to the DAW, thus negating the 3gb 32 bit limit?

 

[j.troup]

Why don't you get some more ram first?

I was under the impression most of those instruments could address their own ram allocation seperate to the DAW, thus negating the 3gb 32 bit limit?

The VST is hosted inside the DAW...so it's subject to the DAW's ram allocation.


Plus the OS itself won't grab more than 3 GB of RAM. So you can put 128 GB of RAM in it, and the OS will still only grab 3.

 

[ptonemusic]

That's ****ed up. Out of curiosity what was the benefit to having an all in one system? Did you ever travel with it?

 

[j.troup]

That's ****ed up. Out of curiosity what was the benefit to having an all in one system? Did you ever travel with it?

I never traveled with it. But that's definitely a benefit, had I needed to. The production work I've done in other studio's was just that...producing the song, not necessarily making the beat.


It would have worked better if i could have gotten the custom software integrated how I needed it to be integrated. The good thing about getting with MC on the ground floor, is that I can have some input into hardware and software designs, that will hopefully give them a competitive advantage.

 

[ptonemusic]

Did you ever consider a maxed out i7 desktop, very cheap if you aren't moving anywhere.

 

[j.troup]

Did you ever consider a maxed out i7 desktop, very cheap if you aren't moving anywhere.

No. I'd rather have an optimized system, all made to work together. Plus Dell isn't gonna provide me with support when my apps aren't working together. They are just gonna blame it on the apps, and the apps are gonna blame it on the hardware.

Plus when you start mixing and matching components, you never know how everything is gonna work together. It isn't always seamless.


I'd rather have a complete solution that's been tested, debugged, and optimized for music making.



That's just me. The processor isn't the issue. The processor doesn't really do that much when you're making music. It's about accessing the sounds. So for that, you need as much RAM as possible, then you need fast hard drives.

 

[ptonemusic]

Aren't synths dependent on the cpu rather than ram? MC is going to support third party software?


Price isn't too bad actually, will be better if they change out those pads. A Macbook pro, keyboard and Apogee Duet is a similar price.

I'm still a bit confused as to where these all fit in. If you don't travel a desktop daw and external gear will give way better performance. If you travel to other studios you'll probably be using their protools system since it'll all be hooked up, thus relegating the blade to being just another keyboard.

 

[dmensah1]

No. I'd rather have an optimized system, all made to work together. Plus Dell isn't gonna provide me with support when my apps aren't working together. They are just gonna blame it on the apps, and the apps are gonna blame it on the hardware.

Plus when you start mixing and matching components, you never know how everything is gonna work together. It isn't always seamless.


I'd rather have a complete solution that's been tested, debugged, and optimized for music making.



That's just me. The processor isn't the issue. The processor doesn't really do that much when you're making music. It's about accessing the sounds. So for that, you need as much RAM as possible, then you need fast hard drives.

and there is the tradeoff. Great workflow/portibility of the Open Labs/Studioblade systems vs more flexibility for "future proofing" by custom building your own desktop. I built a core 2 quad instead of buying the Timbo Miko since I didnt need to tour at the time.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Aren't synths dependent on the cpu rather than ram? MC is going to support third party software?


Price isn't too bad actually, will be better if they change out those pads. A Macbook pro, keyboard and Apogee Duet is a similar price.

I'm still a bit confused as to where these all fit in. If you don't travel a desktop daw and external gear will give way better performance. If you travel to other studios you'll probably be using their protools system since it'll all be hooked up, thus relegating the blade to being just another keyboard.

The vsts Troup is talking about rely moreso on RAM and the HD speed/capacity/type. Omnisphere can bring Mac Pro desktops to their knees so a macbook pro wont run it very well in some cases. I have NI Komplete that has Kontakt which is similar to the EQSL plugins. You can use Direct Disk Streaming to help with the performance but if you dont have a lot of RAM and you start using a bunch of patches it can stall the session up. Ive done this before in Logic...it wont even load up the session properly anymore and I have a quadcore with 4 GB of RAM LOL!

 

[ptonemusic]

You can put 8gb's in a mbp though right? Same as blade.

A 16gb desktop i7 must cost about about 1000 right?

 

[dmensah1]

yep, except that Omnisphere eats a ton of CPU as well, the sample-based vsts not so much. it's funny because a bunch of companies are selling the VSTs with Harddrives so everything is pre-installed due to laptops usually not having strong HDs. but yeah, in my opinion, unless you plan on live performances or using mid-range plugins I just cant justify getting one of those all-in-ones as a long-term centerpiece of the studio but to each their own. it's great to have choices.

 

[Ill Rocka]

Because my customers come FIRST. They say jump, I say how high. That's how business goes.

lol